Baby Needs and Wants

According to the media, babies are expensive and needs lots of stuff but most of the mothers I know recognize that the media doesn't know what the heck they are talking about. But I'll admit, it's a bit odd this time around because I really don't need very much at all for this baby. Of course, there is always at least a few things that I would want to have for a baby, some reasonable and some, not as much.

Baby Needs:

Car Seat - We do need one of these and because I don't have other things to research, I'm afraid I've gone crazy with the car seat research. I love our MyRide but it's a fairly deep seat and since Lucy is still rear facing with a good 10lbs or 3-4 inches before she switches, we'll have to put someone rear facing behind the driver so I think we will go with either a Roundabout55 or a Radian (putting Lucy in it with the angle adjuster). The local place that sells the Radian will let us take it out to the parking lot to try it out before we buy it which is very helpful since not only is the rear facing recline an issue, but some cars seem unable to have the Radian installed forward facing at all - and how frustrating would it be to spend $250 on a car seat only to find out it won't work after a few months! Update I wrote this several days ago but just got a Roundabout 55. Craig hasn't tried it out yet but I like the look so far. 

Diapering - Don't really need anything for the first few months. Our prefolds are in excellent condition still and since Lucy outgrew her size 1 Thirsties Due covers at about 4-5 months, they are still in really good shape too even though I didn't expect any of the covers to last two kids. The size 2 covers are still in use over undies when we travel so they have been in service for 20+ months and will probably need to be replaced when Dewey gets that big. I'd also like another wet bag since I keep one available for potty accident cleanup and Lucy and Dewey may occasionally be in different places and I could use a few more wipes but still that puts our second child diaper needs at about $13x5(covers) + $20(wetbag)+$10(wipes) = $95. Not too shabby.

Clothes - We are set for the first few months. All of our newborn clothes and most of our 0-3 mon clothes are gender neutral. They are being washed as we speak and will soon fill up Dewey's drawers.

Others - We definitely have enough burp rags and receiving blankets and we didn't really use them much last time. Lucy was a big spitter until 12 weeks when I figured out I had oversupply and got a little help from my hormones slowing things down but we mostly used prefolds for that. We did have a miracle blanket that we used at the beginning. Craig loved it but I wasn't really a big swaddler and recently I've been reading more and more about the negatives of swaddling so I don't think we will be swaddling Dewey much if at all.

Sleeping location - We have our co-sleeper. The only time we used it with Lucy was for the first few months if I put Lucy down for an hour or so before going to bed myself. I think it might get used more this time since Lucy still joins us in bed in the morning and I'll need to keep them safely separated.

Carrier - Although I don't really have an Ergo anymore, or never did or whatever - I do have a moby and a sakura bloom ring sling.. I love them both for the first few months. But we will be getting some sort of ssc in the future, I really don't think I can do two kids without one. 

Fairly Reasonable Baby Wants 

Diapering - I'm pretty sure I'll be getting rid of most of our pockets. I will keep our newer pockets since Lucy still uses those pockets night but the rest are going and I just got and the three brand new all-in-ones I got for free (one one-size, twoi newborns). I just couldn't turn down free diapers but I really don't like pockets/all-in-ones and really want to switch to all natural materials, especially those that actually touch baby skin. I didn't think I would like fitteds but I actually love them so I would like to add a few more of those as well as more wool covers. My favorite fitted and the only bumgenius diaper I truly love was, of course, discontinued, but I just bought a firefly fitted to try and I'll probably try out a few other brands too. I want to go a little more off the beaten path with the diapers I choose from now on.  In an ideal world, I would do all wool covers but realistically, I don't have the money to pay for them or the energy/time to make my own and I still prefer a PUL cover for riding in the car situations (or swing, exercisaucer type situations except we don't really do those things). But I would love to have enough wool for overnights at least - perhaps a lanacare sleeper plus a disana cover and/or pants in every size? I'd like to try a firefly cover but they have always been out of stock when I look.

Clothes - I'll say it. I hate onesies. Okay, I hate onesies for newborns and little infants because I'm always snapping and unsnapping to change diapers or take off spitty clothes and they are annoying. And I hate onesies after 9-12 months because babies start crawling away while I try to snap them and we start doing potty learning anyway so they just get in the way. So I guess I don't mind them in size 6 months :-) I love tees - kimono style for newborns and lap tees for older babies. They work well with wool bottoms and if it gets cold, I can just put baby legs on. If a diaper is untucked, no wicking onto a onesie leading to an entire outfit change. Perfect baby attire - so why are they are so hard to find?! I don't blame people for always buying us outfits with onesies because 90% of what you see in the store is a onesie. I am so happy Lucy finally made the switch to 2T because finally finally we can get away from the onesies. I guess I'm in the minority with my onesie hatred but if anyone knows of a good source of cute colorful (and preferable not ridiculously expensive) t-shirts for babies, please please please let me know! I know many people like american apparel but there are aspects of that company I'm not very comfortable supporting. Update: Someone recently shared this company's information with me. I haven't ordered from them but at least it is an option!

Big Sister Kit - This one is really for Lucy, but ties in with the new baby. She loves to take care of her baby right now and I have a feeling that will only increase when our new baby arrives. I'd love to get her a baby carrier of her own (like this little boba or a ring sling to match mine or maybe even a mini mei tai )) and I plan to make her a few doll sized cloth diapers since she currently uses her own pockets (or undies) but they are difficult for her to fasten correctly and dwarf her baby. And don't forget a big/lil sib shirt although I might go this direction instead.

from etsy seller Uzume

Misc - Amber teething necklace. I always meant to get one for Lucy but somehow never did. But I've heard from enough moms that I think they must work.


Not nearly as reasonable baby wants

Montessori mobiles and "toy" set - I wasn't nearly as "into" Montessori when Lucy was first born as I am now. I still don't think these are necessary, babies do just fine with a couple faces to look at for fun. That said, I can see this baby spending more time on the floor since Lucy doesn't like to play alone (she will play by herself but likes me to be sitting near her) and I do like them a lot.

from etsy seller Bella's Casa

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 This particular etsy seller, Bella's casa comes recommended to me but if I do get some mobiles, I'll probably stick with one of the smaller sets of say, maybe the blue gobbi and the dancer? Or I could try making my own. Kylie over at How We Montessori has just put up a few posts about mobiles that have inspired me to find a way to get at least a few. I'd also love a simple Montessori baby toy set like this.  

Baby hammock - This would be a total splurge and should probably be in it's own "Super ridiculous baby wants" - at least for our family anyway, but they are so cool I had to include them. Amyb's are probably the most well known although I've heard awesome things about the kanoe. If I did get one, I'd probably go for a style more like the specialdelivery or magic cabin ones though.

Woven wrap - This was a mayb before the whole Ergo fiasco but since then I've actually decided I don't think I really want one. I love soft structured carriers and while they may not be as fancy(hippy) looking as a cool woven wrap would be, they are very practical.  Still, they are beautiful and wearing Dewey in one would completely my hippy mom package.

Have any baby wants that have caught your eye lately (reasonable or not)?

Finally, some answers

It was never my intention to leave you waiting for answers for so long but we have been having some sleep issues around here and I'm afraid my brain isn't working so well. In fact, this week I had confused my calendar and had not one, not two, but three activities mistakenly scheduled for this week when they should have been next week. It's a really good thing I ran into a friend that happened to be going to those as well or I would have been driving here and there for nothing.

Anyway, on to the questions and answers:

Q) My biggest concern about the homebirth is that I'll be worried about the house (cleanliness, organization, decoration) instead of focusing on labor! In the hospital, I wasn't in charge of anything and I didn't have to wonder if there was going to be enough room. How did you turn off that part of your brain? Does it turn itself off?

A) In my experience, yes it does turn itself off.

When it came to organization, I worried too. Craig could never remember which drawer held onesies and which one held receiving blankets and what would happen if he mixed them up (hint: he'll open one and see the wrong items, then open the other and it will be okay :-) and he is always asking me where things are in the kitchen, what if he can't find something?

Previous to Lucy's birth I would have said I was a very neat person (well, I still am I just have a non self-napping baby so I'm having to let it go). And I did my fair share of nesting before labor but I had actually left a number of things to do to get ready for early labor, thinking as a first time mom I would be putsying around for a couple hours. That didn't happen so Craig had to scramble to put new sheets on the bed, gather up a few supplies we still needed, etc all by himself. I had even planned on cleaning up the bathroom (just wiping counters and stuff) but honestly, none of that mattered one bit. The one thing cleaning/organization I remember perfectly well about labor was when the midwife asked for the crockpot. I knew the answer but also knew I wouldn't be able to say it. But Craig did great with everything, even knowing where the crockpot was. I wouldn't make the mistake of leaving anything again but only because I wanted Craig with me instead of running around. I think most husbands know they have to be on the top of their game and will rise to the occasion.

Also, my midwife had visited the apartment several weeks earlier and seen the bedroom so even though I thought I would be spending time in the bath and on the bed, she knew how to set things up when I decided I like it better on the floor. Now, we didn't have a ton of space there, but I didn't really need it so even though all the homebirths I had read about happened in houses, don't think that apartments don't work too! (We did tell the neighbors that I was close to delivering so not to worry if they heard noises since one of my big worries was that they would hear my yelling and call the cops)

Q) Isn't it messy?

Yes and no. Birth is a bit messy, there is no getting around it. But that doesn't mean you are left with a yucky house afterwards. After the birth, my midwife wanted to hang around for a hour or so to make sure Lucy and I were doing okay and breastfeeding was getting off to a good start. While we napped, she cleaned up. She had put pads down everywhere so there was literally only one drop of blood on my cream-colored carpet and she got that out easily with hydrogen peroxide. By the time she left, the place looked better than when she got there!

And lastly, not really a homebirth question, but still a hippy mamma type one so I thought I'd add it in:

Q) What do you do with Lucy's diapers when you're in a public restroom? You can't really wash them right away like you can at home, so what do you do with the dirty liners?

This is changing. In the past, Lucy has been EBF (exclusively breast fed) and things were easy. All diapers could go straight into a wet bag. A wet bag is a waterproof, zippered bag that is fully washable so when it is emptied, it can go in the wash too. (I have a planet wise and highly recommend it). In a lot of places (on the train, for examples) I think it is actually easier than disposable because it is fully contained, I don't have to find a trash can.

Now that she is starting eat solids, it gets trickier. Wet diapers are the same but the "other" ones are a bit more work although there are options with how you handle that. You can do the old fashioned toilet dunk, buy or make a sprayer, or use flushable liners. I haven't actually done any of those yet, Lucy has only started having "different" diapers the last couple days and I just threw them in with my other ones. I will probably find out this afternoon when I wash them that I shouldn't have done that but I haven't had time (or access to a car) to go out lately. Tomorrow is Lucy's 6 month check up so I have to go to the city and I plan to stop and get some liners to use when we are out and about. They are thin but sturdy so you can pick them up and everything on them up and deposit it right into the toilet and the diaper is then fine to go in the wet bad. We will probably use these at my mom's house as well but tomorrow is our next scheduled Lowe's stop (we have to schedule them or we would go every day!) and I'll be having Craig pick up the supplies to make me a sprayer for the new house. Until we move in there, I'm not quite sure what I'll be doing.

To be honest, I am totally dreading this part of cloth diapers. It probably won't be as bad as I'm imagining but I've been spoiled with my EBF baby.

We’re a crazy bunch

One of the more unusual things I did last weekend was attend a diaper sale. Cotton Babies was having a dollar days sale where they have well-loved (well-used) diapers on sale for $1. I didn’t want to tackle it alone so I asked my SIL to go with me. I wasn’t sure exactly what they had but thought I would go for fun and maybe pick up a few covers – WRONG!

We got there around 8:40 am knowing the doors opened at 9. The line was already around the side of the building and well into the parking lot. The first people arrived at 4:30am – crazy! We took a spot behind a mini-van, trying our best to stay in the shade. Talking to some moms in line, I learned that the only thing they sell at these sales are bumgenius pocket diapers and their was a limit of 25/person. Well, I didn’t really need that many pocket diapers but at such a good price I did want some. Even if they need repairs, the repair kit is only $1 and I’m handy enough with a sewing machine that I felt confident I could easily fix it up. You really can’t beat $2 for a pocket diaper since new they run $18.

At 9am, the line started moving, but slowly. And it turned into the line that never ended. Once we got up to the side of the building, we saw that they had let the first part of the line move indoors to let more people in the air conditioning. Then we turned the corner (and into the shade!) and saw that it wrapped a few times before going inside. Once inside, we saw that it didn’t go straight back to the sale area but instead went through a little loop around the store first. In other words, it was long!

But I have to tell you that Cotton Babies did a great job. The whole thing was run very smoothly and efficiently. They had workers going around to the whole line offering us water, lemonade and bagels. Considering that this was a line of pregnant women, nursing moms, babies and small children waiting in the hot sun for several hours, it could have been a disaster but there was only one fainting incident (and it wasn’t me :-) so hats off to them!

The moms were also great. We were all obviously serious about getting diapers but we were still friendly. If someone had to go change a diaper or chase after a wayward toddler, they could leave knowing their spot would be there. We all chatted about what diapers we liked best and gave each other tips. I even got some shopping techniques for the used diapers (look for good fabric since that can’t be replaced and velcro tabs can easily made a diaper look bad but elastic is really more important since it’s harder than velcro to replace).

And Cotton Babies released their new 4.0 diaper that day so of course we all took a look at the new features and colors. Steph was so kind as to buy Lucy one (in pink!) and a pair of matching baby legs. I think she was a little stunned by the intensity of our love of diapers and the sheer number of women willing to drag themselves and their babies out early on a Saturday morning to buy used diapers. She was such a good sport though. And while I felt really bad about making her wait in line so long, I’m not sure how I would have done it without her, three hours is a long time! Luckily Lucy slept most of it and we took turns holding her. Steph even took her next door to a coffee shop to cool off for a while. Once we were inside in the air conditioning, Lucy woke up and enjoyed looking around at all the excitement. I had to feed her twice but I had my sling with me and even though I had never fed her standing up before, I managed.

By the time we got into the “sale zone” it was about 11 and I was a little worried they would be out by then but there were still tons left. I was even able to grab 2 of the last 3 dark pinks, one of my favorites and a very popular color.

You enter the roped off area and it is nothing but 5-6 folding tables with huge piles of diapers sorted by color. More diapers than you have probably ever seen in your life.

Before we left the house, I had told myself I was only going to spend $10 but I didn’t know how good the sale was and I had waited so long that I wanted my “time's” worth so I upped my limit and said I would buy 15, or 5 for me and two of my other cd’ing friends. I actually bought 16 because I miscounted and didn’t realize until I was checking out but it worked out nicely since that meant I got to keep one of every color – a rainbow for Lucy’s bottom. In hindsight, I should have bought more but I was scared I was only getting caught up in the frenzy and would regret it. That is really easy to do at sales but now I regret not buying them. Oh well, there is always next time. And yes, I will be going again next time!

Cloth on a Newborn? Part 2

So what exactly have I been using with Lucy? Well, I started with:

2 dozen Cloth-eez newborn size unbleached: Cloth-eez prefolds are only available from Green Mountain Diapers. They come in more sizes than the typical blue/green prefolds you see other places but are supposed to be the top of the line in quality and more sizes means a better fit. Some people say you can go straight to a infant/small prefold and skip the newborn size. That would mean you save about $40 but I wouldn't unless you are really sure your babe is gonna be big. At 7lbs, 14 oz, Lucy was a fairly average-sized baby and the newborns fit nicely and will probably continue to fit for a while longer. I think the infant size would have been huge on her. Two dozen is enough to get us through two days so if we wash every night we have plenty of time to let them dry in the sun.

Five Covers: I have three different cover types. While I definitely have my preferences, I have to say that they have all functioned well and we haven't had any out of covers leaks.

Prowraps, Newborn size (hook and loops): At $7.75 and coming only in white, prowraps are a basic and boring but inexpensive cover. They work well and were the only one of my covers to have an umbilical scoop so they were my favorite for the first week but now that Lucy is 3 weeks old and approaching 9lbs, they are getting a big snug. They still fit, it's just harder to make sure the prefold is tucked.

Litewrap - I got the retro pattern but while it's cute, it's my least favorite cover. It's really big and runs high on the waist. Plus having to mess with both a snap and the velcro is weird. It might be nice if you have a toddler who wants to take off their diaper but with a newborn it is just annoyingly slow. Having said that, I do like how the inside feels and the newborn size is supposed to work up to 14lbs so I might like it more when she moves to the larger prefolds or with my small fitteds.

Thirsties Due Size 1 (one hook/loop, one snap) - These are my favorite. They worked well from the start and have only gotten better. They seem to be the best quality of all three, the fabric is nice and they have laundry tabs. They don't have an umbilical scoop but when I tucked the prefold down, the cover was high enough off her skin that it didn't touch and wasn't an issue. They are large and high enough that the prefold easily fits inside but don't seem to swallow her up and feel trim. I like both the velcro and snaps. The velcro is faster and you can get a more precise fit but the snaps seem like they will have more longevity. Right now Lucy needs the waist to be in 5 snaps which unfortunately means I have to go two in on one side and three on the other. It doesn't effect performance but my OCD side doesn't like it at all. But if you are breastfeeding and doing a lot of skin to skin contact, the snaps are nicer. Sometimes velcro can rub mom uncomfortable. I never would have though about that pre-baby , but it does happen. And while at $12.25 they may seem more expensive, once you consider that size 1 will replace both a newborn and size small cover, they are actually a really frugal option. Plus, they come in cute colors and patterns! If I had to do it all over again, I would probably go with all Thirsties covers for a newborn.

Cloth on a Newborn? Part 1

When we first decided to cloth diaper, I was definitely not going to start right away. It sounded very stressful and I wanted to give my new-mom self a break. I thought I would be overwhelmed with everything else and didn't want to stress about "tricky" cloth diapers. And buying a whole set just for 6 weeks didn't seem financially worth it. I knew the infant prefolds would be too bulky and even pocket diapers that say they work for 8lbs+ don't work well with newborn chicken legs. Even bigger babies need a few weeks to fatten up first. And even many die hard cloth diaper lovin' mamas say to just use disposable at first.

But as time went on, I was less and less happy with the idea of using disposables. Finances were still a factor but health and not exposing my baby to chemicals was becoming increasingly important to me. So I calculated the cost, it would be about $80 for 2 dozen newborn prefolds and several covers. Plus two of the covers I was planning on getting anyway (Thirsties size 1). That is about what the disposable diapers I would have used would cost for 6 weeks so I figured we would break even on the first kid and since they would barely be used, they would still have lots of life left. I still worried that it would be too much for me to handle and I would end up buying disposables and wasting my money but figured it was worth a shot.

So the very first diaper we put on Lucy was cloth.
And we have never looked back. They aren't hard at all. Yes, we Craig does have to run a load of diapers every night but the machine does the work so it only takes 5 minutes. Then he leaves them to dry out in the sun or I toss them in the dryer. And I never have to worry about running out of diapers and having to send Craig to the store.

And we only had a leak issue one time, with the second diaper - apparently trifolding and meconium don't mix. But even then it didn't get out of the cover and after that we switched to the jelly roll fold and haven't had any problems. Even when the sounds coming from her abdominal area make me think that surely we will.

Speaking of meconium, I know that is one reason many people choose not to use cloth right away, but it really isn't a big deal. At first I used liners I had made by cutting up an old t-shirt. That was nice since I could pick up the bulk and just toss the whole thing but my milk didn't come in until later so we were dealing with meconium until day 8 and I got tired of that. So I just stopped using them and figured I would just have to live with stains. But I didn't have to because the sun works wonders on stains. A few hours laying out and they disappear. Even yucky meconium ones. And if you are left with a stubborn stain or two, is that a big deal? I mean, they are only diapers!

And yes, prefolds and covers are not the most advanced diapering system out there but with the aid of a snappi, it works well and they are not nearly as tricky as some would lead you to believe. I always hear the new systems say they are great for "grandparents, babysitters and dads" who can't handle prefolds. I get babysitters and grandparents because they probably won't be changing a ton of cloth diapers and you don't want to have to show them how every three months they come visit but if a guy can tie his shoes, he can master the prefold/snappi concept. Don't get me wrong, I'm not against pockets or all-in-ones. I have a few and am excited about using them when Lucy's a bit bigger but it seems a bit demeaning to suggest that men can't handle prefolds.

So if you are wondering whether newborn cloth diapering is worth it, I say yes!

Dirty Baby Business

I am so excited about cloth diapering it is ridiculous. Sometimes Craig has to remind me that I'm getting all giddy about something that will soon be covered in poop. But I can't help it.

We pretty much knew from the beginning that cloth diapering was something we wanted to at least give a try. For one, it's better for the environment. Most studies, as well as common sense, say that washing and reusing a diaper is more environmentally friendly than making a new one and having to dispose of it. Otherwise we would all be wearing disposable underwear, right? But as nice as I think our planet is, environmental reasons weren't really that big of a factor for us.

For me, it was the health factor. Neither of us have a good track record when it comes to skin issues so genetically, this kid has no chance and the idea of putting a chemical filled plastic sack on his/her skin just doesn't sound appealing. One argument I've heard several times as a negative to cloth diapering is that they need to be changed more often. Now, a baby in cloth diapers shouldn't be peeing more than any other baby so for me that is a plus. It will force me to make sure my baby isn't sitting in a dirty diaper just because I don't have to worry about leaks.

For Craig, it was definitely the money factor. Cloth diapering is so much cheaper. Even factoring in additional water usage (3-4 additional loads a week) and accounting for coupons and sales for disposables, we are going to save quite a bit. And the more kids we have, the more we save!

Yes, it will be more work but there is so much additional household work that comes with a baby that, I figure what's a few more loads of laundry? And since I won't have daily access to a car, at least I won't have to worry about running out of disposables and being stuck. The dealing with poop issue isn't a big concern to me either since the changing of the diaper is the worst part and that is the same no matter what type of diaper you use. All I have to do is take the whole wet bag, empty it into the washer, toss in the bag itself and run the load. I don't even have to touch anything until it's all clean again.

I think the biggest thing about using cloth diapers is that you have to want to. If you don't, no amount of saving money or health issue will make it worth it. Right now, as about to be evident by my excessive number of pictures, I'm really excited about them and most cloth diapering mamas I know are just as excited as me. But there may come a day when other things have to take priority or it really weighs me down and I have to be willing to adjust.

My biggest dilemma when it came to cloth diapering was what type I wanted to use. There are soooo many options out there. There are a 4 main types and withing each type there are different options such as sized or one-size, material options, and different brands to choose from. It's a lot to take in.

In the end, we decided to do a mix to start out with. The least expensive option is pre-folds and covers and that is what I am planning on doing for the bulk of my diapering. This is the old-school style but better (no pins and way more options than just gerber plastic pants). I've heard the pre-folds from green mountain diapers are some of the best quality. They come in more sizes than traditional pre-folds which means a bit more expense but the fit is better. I hope to get 1-2 dozen of the infant size to start out with. Pre-folds need covers to be waterproof but don't need that many covers since they are just the outside protective layer and can be reused a couple times unless you have a big blowout.

Here are my two flip covers which are one size. They will work from itty baby to toddler but I plan on also getting one of each of the most popular types of sized covers in small to see what works best with our baby. (Some work better on chunky thighs, others with long torsos, etc). I've also made a few wool covers to use too. (More on those in an upcoming post!)

Then I got a few fitteds. Fitteds are shaped like a diaper but still need a cover. They are one of the more expensive options so I wasn't planning on getting any but my mom and I were able to find some great bumgenius bamboo fitteds for 50% off since they were seconds. And the only reason they were seconds was because there is an extra tag!

They are supposed to be the best for the younger stage at holding everything in when it is more, uhm, flowy. Plus, the bamboo is really soft. They will use the same covers as the pre-folds.

Then I wanted a few one-sized pocket diapers. These are normally $17-20 a diaper but they can be used from ~8lbs up to toddler and work basically like a disposable except you wash them so they are handy for when you have a babysitter or grandparent who is confused by things that need to be folded or pinned/snappi-ed. I'm planning on using these for overnight since the pocket can be filled with extra absorbency pads (called doublers) and seem like they would be the quickest thing to try to use in the middle of the night when I'm barely coherent.
I'm now got two BumGenius ones and hope to get at least one from each of the other two brands I've heard great things about: Happy Heinies and Fuzzibunz.

I've also got this one as a gift.It's really neat but I'm not sure what to call it, it's not quite a pocket but it does have a snap-in liner and doubler so it's a complete diaper or I can use just the yellow wool part as an additional cover over pre-folds/fitted.

So that's my little but growing stash. As you can see, when I said before that I had finally decided what I wanted to use, I meant I didn't decide, I'm just going to go with them all! Once baby grows out of the smaller size pre-folds and covers, we will see what has worked best and go with that for the next size. I think the key to making cloth diapering work is being flexible and willing to try things to see what works best for us. (Well, that, and not going crazy and buying a lot more than we need.)